Michael Levin & Pamela Lyon: Rethinking Cognition for Longevity & Regenerative Medicine

This episode of the "Live Longer World" podcast, titled "Michael Levin & Pamela Lyon | Rethinking Cognition for Longevity," features a deep dive into the fundamental nature of cognition with guests Dr. Pamela Lyon and Dr. Michael Levin. Moving beyond the traditional brain-centric view, they explore the concept of "basal cognition," arguing that cognitive processes like memory, decision-making, and learning are inherent properties of life itself, observable even in microbes, cells, and tissues lacking nervous systems. The conversation delves into the historical context of cognitive science, the groundbreaking evidence from microbiology and bioelectricity, the role of stress in cognitive evolution, and the profound implications this paradigm shift holds for biology, regenerative medicine, longevity, and even our understanding of artificial intelligence and our place in the living world.

Key Insights

• Cognition is not exclusive to brains or nervous systems; fundamental cognitive capacities like memory, learning, decision-making, and communication are present even in microbes and single cells (Basal Cognition).
• Traditional Western cognitive science has often lacked a strong biological and evolutionary foundation, leading to an incomplete understanding of what cognition is and where it resides in the spectrum of life.
• Microorganisms like *Bacillus subtilis* and *Mixococcus xanthus* exhibit sophisticated collective behaviors, communication (including bioelectrical signals), problem-solving, and even forms of learning and anticipation, challenging anthropocentric views.
• Bioelectricity serves as a crucial medium for communication and computation within biological systems, coordinating cellular activities and enabling collective intelligence in tissues and developing organisms, operating "all the way down" to the molecular level.
• Stress responses and cognitive capacities likely co-evolved, with the need to navigate environmental challenges driving the development of increasingly sophisticated sensing, prediction, and adaptation mechanisms – potentially forming the basis of biological creativity.
• Adopting this broader view of cognition opens up new experimental avenues, theoretical frameworks, and practical applications in biology and medicine, such as new approaches to regenerative medicine (communicating with tissues) and understanding disease.
• While current AI architectures differ significantly from biological life, we should be cautious about assuming their cognitive limits, as even simple systems can exhibit unexpected emergent properties and intelligence.

Pamela Lyon's Path to Basal Cognition

Pamela Lyon described her unusual entry into cognition research, stemming from a PhD focused on comparing Buddhist philosophical propositions about the mind with Western scientific views. She encountered a significant hurdle: while Buddhist philosophy offered a clear, functional concept of mind refined over millennia, Western cognitive science lacked a consensus definition. Prevailing views equated mind with the brain or computation, which Lyon found insufficient and lacking practical utility. Cognitive science at the time (late 1990s) had minimal engagement with biology or evolution, only beginning to explore embodied cognition and animal minds much later. This gap prompted Lyon to investigate the biological roots of cognition.

Driven by the need for an evolutionarily grounded perspective, she turned to microbiology, despite being told there was "nothing to see here" beyond reflexive behaviors. Contrary to this dismissal, her exploration (aided by prior experience interpreting complex molecular biology research) revealed a world of sophisticated microbial behaviors: sensing, sensory-motor activity, memory, non-associative learning, decision-making under uncertainty, error correction, prediction, and complex communication. This discovery convinced her that cognitive processes were far more fundamental and ancient than typically assumed, existing long before nervous systems.

Cognition as a Fundamental Property of Life

Lyon's research, informed by complex systems theory (citing thinkers like Maturana, Varela, Kauffman, Rosen), led her to formulate principles for a "biogenic approach" to cognition. This approach posits that cognition is not something that emerges only at a certain level of complexity (like brains) but is intrinsic to the processes of life itself – particularly self-organizing, self-producing (autopoietic) systems. The central question shifted from "Where does cognition appear?" to "What does cognition *do* for an organism?" It serves the fundamental biological imperative of navigating the world to maintain existence.

Michael Levin strongly aligns with this view, even pushing it further. He argues that cognitive properties extend "all the way down" to minimal systems, including molecular pathways and potentially even non-living systems exhibiting similar organizational principles. He notes resistance to this idea often comes from those wanting to maintain a strict separation between the "majesty" of life and "boring" machines or mechanisms, but argues that the principles underlying biological intelligence might be more universal.

Microbial Marvels: Intelligence Without Neurons

Lyon shared compelling examples from the microbial world. *Bacillus subtilis* biofilms demonstrate collective intelligence using bioelectric signals to communicate nutritional status across the colony, coordinating resource usage and essentially "time-sharing" nutrients between the center and periphery, and even between different colonies. Her long-standing favorite, *Mixococcus xanthus*, showcases remarkable social complexity. These predatory bacteria hunt cooperatively, surrounding prey (even nematodes much larger than individual cells) and releasing enzymes. They exhibit oscillatory behavior during feeding to distribute nutrients, aggregate into complex "fruiting bodies" under nutrient scarcity (a process involving differentiation and cellular self-sacrifice), and even demonstrate "complementation," where competent cells transfer capabilities to non-competent neighbors. Most strikingly, Dworkin's 1983 experiments showed *M. xanthus* migrating towards inert glass beads, suggesting sensory modalities beyond simple chemotaxis, possibly detecting mechanical deformation of their environment – revealing a richer "Umwelt" (sensory world) than previously imagined. Another study suggested they might lure *E. coli* prey using chemical signals (cAMP).

Levin added his own lab's findings with the slime mold *Physarum*, which can sense minute mechanical strain differences over distances (e.g., distinguishing between one and three glass beads purely by the physical tension they create in the agar medium) and use this information to make decisions, building a representation of its environment before acting.

Bioelectricity: The Cognitive Glue

Both speakers highlighted the significance of bioelectricity, a field revitalized by Levin's work. Lyon credited Levin's research with changing her perspective, convincing her that cognitive processes indeed operate down to the genetic and molecular levels, mediated by bioelectric signaling. These electrical dynamics within and between cells act as a form of computation and communication, enabling cells to form collectives (like tissues, organs, developing embryos) that possess goals and problem-solving capacities exceeding those of individual cells. Levin noted his own inspiration from pioneers like Harold Burr, who, with rudimentary tools in the 1930s, detected electrical fields associated with life and foresaw many principles now being validated. This bioelectric layer represents the "software" running on the genomic "hardware," crucial for development, regeneration, and potentially memory and learning beyond the brain.

Stress, Creativity, and the Evolution of Cognition

Lyon proposed a co-evolution hypothesis linking cognitive capacity and stress responses. She observed that the most complex microbial behaviors often occur under stress or in anticipation of existential threats. Furthermore, elements traditionally associated with stress and immunity (like cytokines TNF-alpha, IL-1B, IL-6) are now known to play roles in normal brain functions like learning and memory consolidation. This suggests a deep evolutionary connection: the constant need for living systems to overcome challenges and environmental stressors drove the development of cognitive abilities – sensing, predicting, adapting, and problem-solving. Stress responses, therefore, aren't just reactions but potential engines of biological creativity and innovation.

Levin echoed this, discussing his lab's work on "stress sharing" as a mechanism binding cognitive subunits into larger wholes, and how molecules initially involved in cellular stress (like DNA damage repair) were repurposed for large-scale anatomical regulation. He introduced the concept of "geometric frustration" from physics as potentially analogous to real biological stress, where conflicting constraints within a system drive adaptation and emergent behavior.

Broader Implications: From Biology to AI

The implications of viewing cognition as a fundamental biological property are vast. Recognizing cognitive phenomena (memory, learning, decision-making) at cellular and molecular levels allows biologists to ask new questions, develop more predictive theories (moving beyond descriptive science), and design novel experiments. Levin emphasized this leads to practical applications: if gene regulatory networks can learn, perhaps we can "train" or "condition" cells using drugs rather than relying solely on gene therapy (rewiring hardware), potentially offering new therapeutic avenues in regenerative medicine and disease treatment. The goal becomes understanding and communicating with the inherent intelligence of cells and tissues to guide desired outcomes, like regeneration or correcting developmental defects.

Regarding artificial intelligence, Lyon largely deferred to Levin, focusing her framework on living systems. Levin expressed caution, noting that current AI architectures are very different from life's dynamic, constantly reinterpreting systems. However, he warned against hubris. Given that we are still discovering unexpected cognitive capacities in simple biological and even computational systems (citing emergent behaviors in the simple "bubble sort" algorithm), we likely have little idea what cognitive properties might emerge in the complex AIs we are building. He argued that making something doesn't equate to understanding it, and we might be creating interfaces to forms of intelligence, perhaps previously unembodied, without fully realizing it.

Cognition in Eastern Thought

Lyon touched upon the contrast with some Eastern philosophical traditions, particularly from India (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism). These traditions often historically embraced a broader distribution of mind or sentience across the living world, readily accepting cognition in insects, for instance. This contrasts with the historically more anthropocentric view dominant in the West, influenced by Judeo-Christian thought, which often erected sharper boundaries between humans and other life forms, and between life and non-life. Lyon cited the example of Japanese primatologist Imanishi facing Western backlash in the 1980s for proposing cultural transmission in monkeys – an idea rooted in a Buddhist cultural context versus Hallstead's more rigid Western perspective. However, Lyon also noted she's a "heretic" even within Buddhism, as traditional views often exclude plants or molecular processes from the cognitive sphere, unlike her biogenic approach (though Jainism does ascribe life/mind to plants). Levin shared an anecdote where representatives of an Indic tradition strongly rejected his inclusion of non-living systems on a cognitive spectrum, attached to a firm living/non-living distinction.

Conclusion: A New Perspective on Life and Intelligence

The conversation powerfully advocates for a fundamental rethinking of cognition. By recognizing cognitive processes as integral to life at all scales – from molecules and microbes to tissues and complex organisms – we gain a deeper, more unified understanding of biology. This perspective shift, championed by Lyon and Levin, challenges long-held assumptions and opens exciting frontiers in basic science, offering novel approaches for medicine, particularly in harnessing the body's innate intelligence for regeneration and longevity. It also encourages humility in our approach to artificial intelligence and prompts a reconsideration of our relationship with the diverse tapestry of intelligence throughout the natural world.